what christians like you do not realise is that mark does not think of jesus in the terms of john. even john does not think that yhwh SHARES his POWERS with created dependant beings like jesus.
here is an interesting discussion :
brojangles 2 points 12 hours ago
Elijah and Elisha all performed the same miracles as Jesus, including multiplication of food, control of the weather, levitating objects on water and bringing people back from the dead.
Mark says Jesus is performing his works by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enters into him at his baptism, he performs his healings by the power of the Spirit (which apparently emanates from the hem of his robe) and the Holy Spirit leaves him on the cross.
Mark definitely does not think Jesus was God. He has Jesus praying to God and asking him for things. He says that God and Jesus have separate wills. etc.
megustame1 2 points 11 hours ago
To my point, Elisha’s multiplication of food and control of the weather is preceded by “This is what the Lord says” (2 Kings 3:16 and 4:42) control of the weather. Elisha brings someone back from the dead after praying (4:33). It was culturally acceptable to perform miracles as long as it was in the name of a deity or in the context of prayer, as in Elisha and Elijah’s case. This is why the disciples are surprised when they say “Who is this that the wind and the waves obey him?” (Mark 4:41). Performing miracles without the divine name is either demonic blasphemy (as the pharisees thought) or divine (as Mark must have thought, given the consistent “son of God” reference in chapter 1, 10 and 15).
Besides the baptism, what support do you have that it is merely the spirit that allowed him to do miracles, would that not be a more consistent theme in the gospel? Would not a pious jew rebuke his disciples for marveling at his intrinsic power?
brojangles 1 point 11 hours ago
You are just making up criteria out of thin air and Mark make it pretty clear that the requirement for miracle is faith. People are healed by their own faith. When people do not have faith, Jesus has no powers.
Mark says that the Holy Spirit enters “into” (eis auton) Jesus at the baptism (1:and the “drives him into the wilderness.” (1:12). Jesus sees in the Spirit that tell him what other people are thinking or talking about (2:8). Jesus feels the power “go out” of him when a woman heals herself by touching then hem of his robe (5:25).
There is also still the fact that Mark has Jesus praying to God as a separate being with a separate will.
megustame1 1 point 9 hours ago*
It’s not from thin air its from semantic analysis of dunamis when compared to mageia. (Moises Silva TDNT) Dunamis in the context of miracles involves harnessing a divine power to achieve something supernatural, often by invoking a divine name. This is why Jewish sailors used clubs that said “ehyeh asher ehyeh” to calm storms (see Gideon Bohak, Ancient Jewish Magic). Its also why Simon the Sorcerer asks Peter to pay to receive the Holy Spirit, because he has seen that the Spirit has a power which is stronger than those by which he performed magic.
The power by which one performs miracles is the primary way that miracles were differentiated from magic, which the Mishnah makes clear. Further, spoken incantations were generally seen as unacceptable while written incantations (including amulets) were not (Sanhedrin 10a). Jesus never used written incantations but only oral ones, which would have added to the charge of blasphemy.
The power going out of Jesus I think is actually an argument for me, once again the power is Jesus’ own and so touching him can be interpreted as tapping into Jesus’ intrinsic dunamis.
It may appear to be “out of thin air” for us, but I argue that its exactly the way that 1st century Jews would have thought about it.
Edit: Forgot to mention prayer. I don’t feel this is conclusive. John records more prayers than any other gospel writer but nearly everyone agrees that he sees Jesus as God.
brojangles 1 point 9 hours ago
The δύναμις in Mark comes directly from the Holy Spirit which enters into Jesus at the baptism and abandons him on the cross. It is not from Jesus himself. It is all coming from the Holy Spirit.
The power of the Spirit is directly correlated to the faith of the believers, not to Jesus. Jesus is unable to heal them if they don;t have faith. When Jesus is accused of using spirits to heal, he says that blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. That is why he says that. It’s directly because they attribute works of the Holy Spirit to demons. Jesus is healing with the Holy Spirit, not with demons. That is Mark’s point.
Mark does not think Jesus is God. Mark does not think Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Mark is not a Trinitarian. Reading that into Mark is anachronistic and incorrect.
megustame1 1 point 9 hours ago
I don’t think that Mark is a Trinitarian (nor do I really think anyone really was until Nicea). But you do make a good point about the blaspheming against the Spirit. But I still feel that my interpretation explains the data of the entire book better. Particularly that Jesus’ incantations never mention a deity, while incantations in the first century unanimously did. There at least seems to be something about Jesus’ miracles which are completely unique within the first century.
brojangles 2 points 9 hours ago
No entity needs to be mentioned because the power is coming directly from the Holy Spirit. It is also stated that faith is necessary, which implies, necessarily, faith in God.
Nothing Jesus does in Mark is unique within the Jewish prophetic tradition. See Geza Vermes’ Jesus the Jew. JP Meier’s’ Marginal Jew series or EP Sanders’ Historical Figure of Jesus.
Mark sees Jesus essentially as a vehicle for the Holy Spirit, in the same way as Elijah and Elisha who were said to do their miracles by the spirit. In fact, Elisha supposedly gets “twice the spirit” of Elijah, and this relationship is alluded to by the relationship between Jesus and John the Baptist, who Mark explicitly has Jesus identify as Elijah.