how to tell the biblical story in a way that makes a difference

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So many of your comments are your fixed opinion from an assumed ‘monotheistic’ perspective.

I am really familiar with the website (christian momotheism) been there many times. This isnt a sarcastic comment but I was shocked at how little it is visited and used. I initially got the impression the new anti trinitarian block buzzard/socinian/etc etc was much bigger than it actually is. Its not a ‘populum’ argument just a surprised observation.

Trinity is not a dilution of Monotheism, it ever has been. It is however an illumination of God…more information. The biblical data in the OT whether this is the ‘let us’ passages, the plural Elohim, the situations describing two YHWHs on a number of occasions plus the Christophanies and various people seeing God when they were not supposed to ( I know the arguments against some of these) all add up to produce ‘Yes there is ONLY One God but its not as simple as we thought’.

Joel Natan has produced some interesting work on Trinity in the OT do google his name and have a look.

The most shocking thing about your last post was the emphasis on ‘Human’ alone for Jesus. I take it he didnt exist before he became human (Socinian) and you really have to do somersaults over Php 2 and attempt to use some kind of Adam theology to get round the obvious issues. John 17 ‘the glory I had with you before the world was’ may possibly be sidestepped but the plain reader would still see the obvious reference to pre existence.

The use of proskuneo twice in the scriptures to others other than God or jesus (I will let you find the other one) doesnt negate for instance the Heb 1v6 passage, how anyone can read this and think Jesus was just a man leaves me gasping. ‘let all Gods angels worship him’ in a passage where he is called ‘God’ by his father and the lord pf psalm 102 is applied to him and creatorial powers applied to him at the beginning and end of the chapeter is to my mind a really clear indication of his Godship.

Of course he isnt the father, but he is the fathers visible image, and as such is seen as YHWH and God, he is the emanation but not the source but neither existed before each other. Even if we use through and in to describe the creation and we omit ‘by’ we still have a source and emanation none having ontological priority but ontological samness.

Trinitarians believe in the positional supremacy of the father ‘subordinationaism’ is an element of trinitarianism particularly as seen in Nicea.

You seem to mix up Trinitarianism with a number of other views, I keep thinking as I read you ‘he doesn’t understand what Trnitariansim is’.

Im familiar with Philo in fact Jimmy Dunn encouraged me to read Philo. The flow of the prologue though identifies the logos with ‘become flesh’ v14 and the pre existence language throughout Johns gospel makes much more sense than any number of arian/socinian or liberal theories I have seen including yours….sorry!

Interestingly I have in my possession a booklet written by FFB and Metzger on ‘The Deity of Christ’ they use Jn 1v23 to say the things I was saying, I wd rather follow those two fine scholars on this one. In fact my use of that argument and some others came from my first reading of that booklet some 35 years ago now.

You can choose to take John 20v28 as you prefer but a monotheistic jew understanding about the One most high God is not going to ‘say TO HIM my Lord and my God’ (mou tou kuriou mou tou theou) its just not going to happen. The unfolding revelatio of Jesus causes Thomas to utter the absolute truth and jesus ever rebuked him as a number of angels rebuked assorted worshippers in the scriptures for ‘proskuneo’ them. Once again the mainstream view makes most sense, it truly does.

The splitting of the SHMA in 1 cor 8v6 is not the creation of two Gods it is the revelation that One God within him is a plurality. Jesus is not ‘another god’ he is the same God, THAT is the key point which I believe you misunderstand about the mainstream view.

Your view on John 1v18 is against the flow, you can choose what you will. you may find the following comments from the NET bible notes interesting.

45tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh” qeo”, “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh” Juio”, “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Ì75א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66א* B C* L pc. The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense to see the word θεός as in apposition to μονογενής, and the participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. (B. D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly impossible and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed immediately by a noun that agrees in gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a noun of the same inflection?” This, however, is an overstatement. First, as Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one might well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881 s.v. 7]. Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The modern translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV. Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo” hn Jo logo”) means “the Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text.=45>